Official Luthiers Forum!

printer2 asked:
"What is on my mind was threads on using local woods rather than exotics."
That's the reason many of us have been doing tests of the mechanical and acoustic properties of woods. I can't give a long answer right now, but the short answer is that it's possible to find 'local' woods that have very similar properties to many of the exotics, and using them will produce a similar tone. So far, the hardest one to substitute for is ebony, and that's just because it's hard to find 'locals' that are black.

Really interested in getting the most out of the woods that are easily available to us. Do we need to treat them differently than using the standard X brace pattern and heights? That is one thing I am curious about. A while back I built an all walnut body that turned out sounding really good, far better than the wood used should have. Mind you I did not heed normal convention and thicknessing the top in the same range as you would spruce (my thoughts were it should respond similarly to an all mahogany). Went much thinner and left the structural end of things to the bracing. Thinned the top by feel, just did not feel like a top until I got it around 0.085". Not like I knew what I was doing but that was the reason I was using second rate wood, even by my standards. Somehow got things sort of right.

So not questioning the concept of the luthier has a great input into the sound of the guitar but where do you think the input is well placed. Where do you get the greatest returns given your experience and how much can you move the sound from eh, to wow? I am sure by this time next year I should be able to answer these questions myself (if I don't end up having a life derailing event) but I am interested in the collective wisdom of the fine members we have. Not everyone has the same idea of what works as different people go about things differently, view the contributing forces in a guitar differently. But the physics that make the guitar work for so many people can not be that different. Just trying to unravel the tangled sticky mess.

First: if your interest is 'local woods', why go to walnut for the top? We've got some of the best softwoods in the world in the US, and there are plenty of them aside from the 'usual suspects' that can work well. It is, of course, interesting to try a hardwood top, but walnut isn't what I'd use. Butternut would probably be better.

"I am sure by this time next year I should be able to answer these questions myself... "

Ever the optimist, eh? I've been working on this for nearly forty years, and I've still got a long way to go.

"But the physics that make the guitar work for so many people can not be that different. Just trying to unravel the tangled sticky mess."

Physics is physics. I'd be very interested in knowing what it is that made your walnut top work ' far better than the wood used should have', but I'm sure you didn't manage to find a way around the laws of physics.

Not as loud as a softwood top but the walnut is sweet sounding. Just used it as an example, softwoods for tops in the foreseeable future. There was a thread on AGF asking what a walnut topped guitar would sound like. Not much for a response so I jumped in as I has some wood that I cut as a test to do some resawing. No idea how thick I should thin the top and thinned it till I got about the same stiffness as a softwood top. At the same time Bruce Sexauer was doing his all walnut and he advised me not to build it too heavy, I replied the top was about 0.085", he measured his own and was in the same range. Makes up for the added density I guess.

No, don't plan to figure it all out this winter but I do want to experiment with a test guitar and see what changing top thickness and bracing will do to the sound how much you can trading off each other. Would like to know how you can adjust the lower modes to add more of one or to take some away of another and what it does to the sound. Also to educate my ears in a way. If I could figure this all out in a year I would be disappointing as then I would need to find another hobby. Pretty sure I will still have lot to learn in ten years time, problem is I came by guitar building late in life and need to make up for lost time. So when I get a chance I ask questions that might shed some light on the tangled sticky mess.

Fred, you may want to get a copy of "The Luthier's Handbook" by Siminoff.
It has lots of discussion about theory, tuning and testing, and making test fixtures.
Pretty interesting stuff.
Dan

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wah
Wah-wah-wah-wah
Wah

I agree some good stuff in this book -- However, I (or anybody else) did not find that the individual component "tuning" strategy yielded any discernible difference over a very similar conventional build. I believe the tension/deflection fixture described would be a very good addition to one's shop its been copied by many, several variations can be found with a Google search..

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

I have the Gore/Gilet books so that gives me a start. Will look up the Siminoff book.



Chladni patterns and deflection fixtures are on my to do list. Used to work in a mechanical test lab so used to doing measurements, wish I still had access to some of the stuff. I have the Gore/Gilet books so that gives me a start. Will look up the Siminoff book. Thanks.

I'm another person who did not find Siminoff to be very useful, or Somogyi's books, for that matter. If you've worked in a mechanical test lab you'll find the Gore/Gilet books right up your alley. Of course, some folks get into this because they're looking for a different alley...

An older, but useful freebie, is Jansson's 'Acoustics for Violin and Guitar Makers', 4th edition. You can download it as .pdf files from:
http://www.speech.kth.se/music

Look for acviguit4/part1.pdf through part9.pdf

He also includes a link to download a useful sound recording and analysis program, 'Wavesurfer', at the same price.

I was wondering about the Somogyi books at the same time as the Gore/Gilet. Found enough online to sway me toward the G/G books because as you say they seemed right up my alley. Already found the Acoustics for Violin and Guitar Makers series, I have been looking into the acoustics of the violin as it seems that they (again the nefarious 'they') have done more work on the acoustics of the the instrument than guitars.

I tend to learn the best when I get multiple sources on the same subject, a different selection of words, different slant on the same concept, different concepts, it all sort of gets dumped into the back of my brain and percolates with sometimes understanding coming out of it. I am a self confessed information junky, need to know how things work and even more how to make things. Really don't know where I am going with this guitar stuff, just know that it interests me more than most other things at the moment. Could be that I like the music making stuff but prefer to hang out with those that can build instruments rather than just a bunch of flaky musicians.

Guitar makers aren't flakey?

You are worrying about this too much. The top bracing
Is about 1 hour of a 6 month project. You just need to start building a guitar. Get moving. Drag yourself back out of paralysis by analysis.

I've hesitated to post about this but "paralysis by analysis" is the quote of the whole thread (besides 42).
Too many here look for the easy way out...let someone else show me. Time to start building. By your 2nd dozen guitars you will figure it out. Tone is individual.

I realize that there are a lot of valid opinions out there, but they are just opinions.
I, and many others have unlocked the secrets, but as to whether they will be accepted by the industry and general public or not is debatable.
You may scoff at this, but I have found it to be true, as have many very famous builders that I've met. They will never admit to this in public though, as it can harm their reputations as skilled technicians and artisans who have poured their lives and time into pursuing the tone, only to find that it was a much more simple thing than they ever suspected.

The real secret to great tone is paying homage and giving offerings to - the tone fairies and sprites.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Yeah but an important hour. Six month project? Then I better take some time off. The projects of the last two years.



The guitars that is, two partly done and got sidelined due to construction. This week I also cut some forms for a uke build, the baked oak in front of the walnut guitar. Also cut a set for an OM and a new parlor shape. Temperature is going to drop and only have a few more days left working in the garage, getting the real messy stuff done out there. I am not building guitars at the moment, tore down a work bench and am putting up a wall and closing off my work area from the rest of the house. Dust always manages to get the rest of the house, closing it off and hopefully managing the humidity in the winter better.

Need to do another couple amp cabinets, I am out of the smaller size one in the picture. Am also working on a new/old amp design. Was part of a Build a $100 Guitar Amp challenge before I got into building acoustic guitars. I took one of the proposed designs I came up with then and finalized it enough to start building it. Worked on the layout today when I should have been making sawdust. Oh well, when you have the inclination to do something it is best to go with it. Have been itching to build a small amp since I gave away my other two and I don't want to pull my larger amps upstairs. Have more or less stayed away stayed away from the amplified side of guitars for the last two years and I guess absence makes the heart fonder, I worked out three designs in the last week.

Probably only going to get the $100 one built any time soon, got to get back to the guitar building. The form on the right is the parlor for the maple set against the amp. The stuff is flat sawn, baked it to hopefully make it more stable. Want to see what it will do over time since I have some birdseye I would like to build with. Will be building with some better woods in the next year, want to get the most out of them. I am sure I can get them to sound half decent. But I want to do more than that. I want to know what the limits are of the wood, how far you can go with them. How to make changes for the different woods, different sizes of guitar, basically want to be competent at this craft on a limited scale. Not afraid to ask question, try thing out of curiosity or show others that mistakes do happen and not everything works out right. Not afraid to pass along what I know to others and realize I have a lot to learn where many others already have tread. Don't really have anyone to learn from locally so I learn what I can from the words people write and the pictures they post. Also helps to inspire me, lot of talented people out there.

There is only one way to become competent at building...BUILD.
I never had anyone to learn from.

Yep and I've stayed out of this thread because until one becomes an experienced builder academic discussions about tone are just that.... academic and subjective as all get out.... Repair clients who want to talk about tone find a brick wall at our shop in terms of tone is way too subjective to quantify and come up with definitions of success, etc.

Hans is right there is no substitute for doing and this means building away all that you can.

What I did since the sheer quantity of material to cover in Lutherie is seemingly endless... was define 2 - 3 specific goals for each new guitar and try to keep my focus narrowed down to these 2 - 3 things. It was also a way to isolate variables so that we may have a clue which change did what.

In the repair world it's the same - no substitute for doing and a repair guy who does not get much work on a weekly basis will struggle with getting good longer than if they, he or she, had been thrown into the thick of things in a busy shop.

Couple other comments. Books will turn you on to the thoughts, talents, and ideas of the writer but on the other hand I never got into this to mimic what others including f*ctories do. Anything proprietary to a specific author or builder is the last thing that I would want incorporated into my instruments because that would make them less mine and more someone else's...

I'll add that I see lots of flying this and CF that and all manner of creative bracing patterns often with no thought given to serviceability down the road.... As much as it was hard for me and who I am as a person I stuck pretty close to convention and with good reason. My belief was that once I had a good understanding of conventional construction and the benefits and draw backs then and only then would I afford myself a license to go off on my own tangent.

Funny thing once I felt entitled.... to do just that I still stuck pretty close to convention because believe it or now the way that say a Martin D-18 is constructed is pretty darn hard to improve upon beyond optimizing and nixing the concerns that Martin has to have that they can't know who will end up with the instrument so they over build to some degree. Build a Martin style instrument but build it for a responsible adult who will take care of it meaning you can built light and it may blow you away..... This is my belief for any iconic and successful producer in the past too.

As such before wanting to know about this or that in respect to tone maybe consider following convention until such time as you not only understand how a guitar works and why but you at times believe that you have become a guitar.

Yep I did just say that.... And no I'm not an Ov*tion but might be a Collings....

Same here --- when I get this question, what follows in the conversation is "I want to build a guitar that sounds like "X" --- well then, copy it. Build it light, tight and precise and you'll most likely be very happy.

On the other hand, a Black Walnut D-18 built to the 1935 specs likely will sound pretty darn good, but to a trained ear it will not sound the same as a D-18 Genuine Mahogany copy -- so what does that prove or accomplish?

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

No substitute for building. Yah, got that part figured out. (see picture)

Don't mimic others or factory guitars but don't go off on tangents from the conventional construction. Usually means copy a Martin until you know how a guitar works. So it is fine reproducing the sound of a Martin but not some other guitar, got it.



'Alright folks, you can have any car as long as it is built like this one and black.'

'What does building a pretty darn good different sounding guitar prove or accomplish?'

Well why have more than one guitar if they all should sound the same?


You know, I saw the title of this thread and did not bother checking it out until it was into its second page. What was the point? But heck, since we are talking about it I asked how far sonically can a luthier take the common woods? I got an answer 'lots'. Somehow it has morphed into 'I didn't have anyone help me figure the stuff out, figure it out yourself.' And, 'Don't try something different to learn how much is lots'.

Not like I was looking for a shortcut on my building adventure, just thought this was the forum to exchange ideas. I already have a good idea how to get the answers I want. If I do find come across interesting I hope I will be able to share it without causing any ill will. Think I will quietly bow out now.

Sorry I was not clear its a rhetorical question

You would prove that a Black Walnut D18 style guitar can be built and it will sound a like a Black Walnut D18 style guitar. I have constructed several and now know what to expect.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Interesting that Droidiphile lit this smoldering fire and hasn't joined the discussion. From the outset it looked like an exersise in tail chasing. Like others have stated, the rubber has to hit the road at some point if you want to test your theories.

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

I count what looks like 12 guitars there... How many of those are finished... Looks like maybe half...

See - you ARE building the tone in.... but until you FINISH them - and play them and get them to open up - you won't be able to evaluate what's going on with the decisions you are making...

Here's what I would do... All the done ones - make sure the setup is A-1 good and take them over to a music shop that you are good friends with... Any that you can't get set up right (Intonation too wonky, bad necks, etc) - don't bother... Just jettison. Ask if you can hang them up and let his customers play the heck out of them... Offer to let kids with no guitars use them for lessons, etc.. I have found that many times - mom and pop music shops are OK with this - as it keeps their "Good stuff" from being damaged.... After about 3 weeks of play like this - you can really hear whether it's what you wanted or not and where yours stand up within the various price points....

Thanks

John

One needs a bridge, its mate has been strung up but I am lowering the action on it. Other than that all the ones with tuners are playable. Learning from each of them. The two half finished are put on hold right now while doing house repairs. When I finish a guitar I bring it to work and let the guys have their way with them. Have about a dozen guys that play, surprised me when I found out we had that many. Nephew and niece's husband play. I know a few musicians I can call on to try my guitars but I would rather hold off on that until I built to the level of the people on this forum. Up until now my builds have been geared to learning how much you can change on a guitar and still have it sounding ok. Actually part of the reason I built half of them is to see how well I could build a guitar with less than luthier quality wood in order to give away guitars to kids that wouldn't normally be able to afford one. Mind you with China producing some inexpensive guitars, for the time it takes to build them I could take on a part time job to pay for them and give them a good setup. Sad but true. Other than my latest and the walnut the rest will be given away in time.

I got a big boost in that regard with the Gore/Gilet books, their explanation of the lower end of the guitar was well worth the cost of the books. I got a good idea on how to learn the tone side of things, not looking for shortcuts when I asked my questions. What I was really asking was for others experiences taking a piece of wood and being able to produce a guitar that can sound a certain way and building it differently they could get the guitar to sound much different. And mainly referring to the back woods, you could brace the tops differently, scalloped, straight braces, get different sounding instruments from the same top.

Take maple, some say it does not have the bottom end that mahogany has. (There are so many things said one way or the other half the time they contradict each other). I don't see why that has to be, depending on the thickness and how it is braced the back should be able to move as much for one wood than the other. But just because I don't see why does not make it true. I have a couple of maple guitars next on my list to get a feel for the wood. I picked up a fairly large range of different woods to build with to learn what they can an can't do. But it will take me some time to get through enough of them to have a valid opinion. So I thought I would ask. How much does the wood really matter in where you can take it sonically. There is a heck of a lot of experience frequenting this forum. I thought I would put a different spin on the question at hand. Sure did not go the way I thought it might. Really regret I posted.

I appreciate everyone that replied to my posts, didn't mean to offend anyone but I also have enough grey hair and lack of it that I will point out something that is inconsistent when I see it without taking things personally. I post exactly what I think and expect others do the same. The reason for posting the picture is that it seemed some thought my questions were from someone that has not built anything and wanted to analyse the guitar to death before they were brave enough to build one. Sad to say I know I should have spent more time measuring the bits that went into these and analyzing the results, but I am more of a just build it kind of guy. Hope to do better at that in the future. Because I think there is information in there that is useful that may help us build better guitars consistently. At least understand them better.

People say we are in the golden age of guitar building. I think that is true. We may not have the quality and quantity of wood that was available in the past and yet the quality of guitars made now seems to be constantly rising. And if we don't continue to learn how to keep it going up even with less exotic woods I bet we will be squeezed out of the market by China. Because you can bet that there are people there asking the same questions and taking it seriously.

Darn, another long post.

Fred my friend I hope that nothing I said made you miffed at me.

Your questions are good ones but I suspect that you may be giving the forum more credit than is due or earned. We have people here who can and have done the math, extensively.... and are very accomplished in the trade as a result.

But at the end of the day the notion that any of us can tell in advance what an instrument will sound like based on a design, math, measurements, and even experience is not always if even usually true. Wood is an imperfect medium and as individual as we are.

We can craft our wares based on our experience, that's why keep on building was suggested and more on this in a moment, and we can trace vibrational patterns, carefully select tone wood, deflection test, etc but at the end of the day how exactly that puppy will sound and to who it will sound that way remains a subjective conversation.

This is not to say that we can't craft tone or manipulate tone or bring out more of this or less of that, we most certainly can. But.... ultimately a guitar is a system and even the person holding on to it can make a change in the resulting tone.

Tone is subjective and often the call to action of the snake oil sales people which makes many of us in time reluctant to comment on tone publicly.

Somogyi has written much about tone, taught lots of students and apprentices, received top dollar for his stuff including the Sonogyi in the White House but you won't see him sharing on forums. There are a number of reasons why but he also knows in advance that all the basics have to be there first before who he talks to about tone is understanding and speaking the same language as he is.

Ervin spends the entire first day of his classes on top selection..... Eight hours of picking out one piece of wood.... He believes it to be VERY important with his style of building and I am sure that he's right too.

Anyway my suggestion to you is that you may not be receiving the attention and answers to your questions that you would prefer because no one here or perhaps anywhere.... really, really knows for sure and instead we are all on our individual journeys trying to find out too.

If by chance any of the authors or accomplished builders wants to weigh-in and proclaim that they can predict the exact tonal characteristics of an instrument before it is built we could use a good laugh once in a while and I've got a bridge to sell too....

Personally I'm willing to a fault to help folks but I also only know what I know and likely less than that.... If I were to ask myself what something might sound like my answer to myself would be the same answer that I offered you, build it and find out.

PS: Nothing wrong with long posts..... And ever get down in the states near Michigan? If so you have an open invitation to come visit Ann Arbor Guitars.

Hope you were not including this in your assessment

But, if so, I fail to see the "no thought to serviceability" part of it. I have been doing some version of this bracing for almost 14 years, and I like it and like the sound it gives me

Grant

The moment I saw your bracing scheme, Grant, Da Vinci's Vetruvian Man came to mind!

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker